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Pupillage Reform
Beth (68 Posts) - Power User
Posted: 14 May 2010 12:37 PM

I wouldn’t be so quick to praise the US system. Yes, there are scholarships and grants, but most people wind up with huge loans. While the law schools facilitate the loans, the actual lenders are commercial companies and charge commercial rates of interest.

Add to this that law is only available as a post-graduate course, and you’re talking 7 years of full time study—plus pssing the bar exams in your state—in order to qualify. An undergrad education at a good private university can cost upwards of $200,000 (about 130,000) for the four years. Even public universities charge $20,000+ per year of law school. Private law schools can charge more than tiwce that. So total tuition etc. fees if you go to a top university for undergraduate and law school will set you back $350,000 or so. You have to have obscenely wealthy parents not to wind up with some kind of debts at the end of the process. Compared to that, 3,000/year as an undergrad and 15,000 for a BVC is *nothing*.

American law school grads wind up with horrendous debts. There is a story that Clarence Thomas was still paying his student loans off at the time he became a Supreme Court justice. I don’t know whether that’s true or not, but it’s believeable.

People take on these debts because they believe they will get well-paid jobs in large law firms. If you’re earning $150,000 a year, you can clear your debts pretty quickly. Of course, some people do get these jobs, but many do not. And they can be saddled with the debts for many, many years. Laywer friends of mine in the US complain about how there are too many law school places for the number of jobs/amount of work available and that the size of debt incurred is not justified if you cannot get a big law firm job. They have said that there’s not much point in going to a law school unless it’s highly ranked nationally (if you want a big firm career) or regionally (if you want a local practice). But there are very many mediocre law schools out there taking tens of thousands of dollars from wannabe lawyers.

Going back to the original subject of the thread, I’m ot sure what can be done to bring the number of BVC studetns and number of pupillages into line. I would personally start by limiting the number of BVC places to a number much smaller than the current crop. There should probably be fewer BVC providers in London, so the fixed costs of online subscriptions, courtroom furniture etc. could be reduced.

It should be for BVC providers to do a better job of screening applicants. I don’t know whether an entrance exam is needed for this or just a more rigorous application form. I think a fair number of my BVC classmates (the ones unlikely IMO to get pupillage anyway) could have been weeded out by an application that required more critical thinking/analysis/legal knowledge. I also don’t understand why people with 2.2s are admitted on to the course.

Posted: 14 May 2010 03:16 PM

I am quite aware of the cost of attending a US law school as know a few that have attended some of the top law schools in the US and I am quite aware of the debt that they are carrying. The point that I have been trying to extract regarding the US system when comparing it to the UK is that the US system does provide greater financial support for their student to ensure that those who come from poorer backgrounds can afford law school through scholarships, tuition discounts and assitantships. A good percentage of a law student’s debt comes from having to first complete a four year degree and attending a four year university that runs $30,000 + / year can add up quickly in loans. If a student in the UK does not receive a training contract or a pupilage prior to entering their one year of educational training then they are forced to fund it themselves without any support from the school in order to make the cost more afforded. In addition in the US the LSAT test acts as a preliminary filter to ensure that only the brightest who want to enter law are able to enter and it keeps from flooding the market with JD degrees thereby devaluing the degee. When I examine both systems I feel the UK system does not ensure that the brightest enters the field of law but instead the systme ensures only those who can afford it enters law. Worst yet many students in the LLB that I have talked regarding their post graduation plans get “gleamy eyed” after during a two week mini-pupilage believing that they are going to be the 20% who will get a pupilage after they complete their one year BVC. At least from my perspective regardless if it is the BVC or LPC more equity needs to be added to the system so that cost does not become prohibative deterring the brightest minds from entering law and I feel more needs to be done to ensure that there is not a flood of graudates that have realistic opportunities of receiving a placement because the supply of graduates exceeds the demand for them.

Beth (68 Posts) - Power User
Posted: 18 May 2010 03:50 PM

I think we’re agreed that the use of competitive admissions in the US system is better for applicants than the “everyone who can pay” ethos in the UK. But I’m not sure the link between the different funding systems is as strong.

In the UK, if you want to go to law school, there are means of paying. For the BVC there are some scholarships from the Inns. For the GDL and LPC, some big firms will pay your way. Most people qualify for professional development loans from the banks. There are also scholarships from charities if you do enough digging. In the US, most scholarships don’t cover anything like full freight tuition, so you still have to cough up a substantial amount or get loans.

   
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