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Forum

Pupillage Reform
Android (45 Posts) - Heavy User
Posted: 18 October 2009 11:06 PM

There are too many BVC graduates and not enough pupillage vacancies to accomodate all good candidates.

How do you think this can be remedied?

Some people suggested limiting the BVC places… but that conflicts with equal opportunities to the legal profession. Plus the providers won’t like that, because more candidates = more profit for them.

Then I heard the proposal to only enrol people with pupillage on the BVC… Again, there’s an equal opportunities issue, as well as a problem with foreign students, who want to do the BVC and have to pay double fees (profitable for BVC providers).

If you increase the number of pupillages, then there won’t be enough tenancies for everyone. But at least then you’re *fully* qualified.

You can’t limit the intake on the LLB/GDL courses, because many people do it for the ‘skills’ and don’t go into the legal industry at all.

So… What can you do?!

 Signature 

Sometimes things get complicated.

Android (45 Posts) - Heavy User
Posted: 18 October 2009 11:07 PM

...and by ‘equal opportunities’ I mean ‘equal access’.

Can you edit posts here?..

 Signature 

Sometimes things get complicated.

Sean (42 Posts) - Heavy User
Posted: 20 October 2009 08:09 PM

Nope no edits it seems.

Law is profitable and competitive, there will always be a huge amount of demand for LLBs, and a consequent oversupply of BVC students. It has to come down to education - people have to be smart enough to realise that going down this route is going to be a gamble - you can’t expect it to be plain sailing. It’s up to each individual to take some responsibility for their career choices, and to implement appropriate fall-backs should things head south.

Android (45 Posts) - Heavy User
Posted: 21 October 2009 11:28 PM

Yeah, gamble, risks blah blah blah. But they take people on, and open more BVC providers. That’s got to count for something, especially when you can’t even get a job after the BVC!

 Signature 

Sometimes things get complicated.

Andr (162 Posts) - Power User
Posted: 22 October 2009 12:10 AM

That would be terrible do the BVC and still have no job, but it happens every year to many people. But as mentioned it comes down to money as well.

However, although its not nice to think about it this way for the individual but it means if there are more legal specialists then required in this country then it should mean that we get the best legal minds in the jobs and thus our country should only prosper from that.

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Coventry University
3rd Year LLB

Posted: 28 October 2009 02:45 PM

What do you think about the news that Kaplan intends to install an admissions test for the BVC/BPTC?

A Pr stunt or bore out of genuine concern at the low number of places available?

I’d have to say it’s definitely the first, however even if it was for the wrong reasons I do think it’s the right thing to do. Asking students to pay often upwards of 13k when a significant amount of them really do have absolutely no chance is in my opinion, very very harsh.

Again though, it’s easy to criticise the system. Anybody got a better alternative they can suggest?! smile

Posted: 12 May 2010 08:43 AM

As it is the Pupillage Pimp season I thought it may be of some use to those aspiring to the heady highs of becoming a pupil. 92 or the last 100 pupil places in the top sets in London went to Oxbridge graduates.

It does not matter if you have a degree in flower arranging, nose picking or bicycle spokes as long as it says Oxford or Cambridge. Do not let Chambers tell you anything else they are all bias towards Oxbridge.

The Bar Standards people know it, the Chambers know it, the Inns know it and every student certainly knows it. However it is not spoken about. It stinks of discrimination and nothing less. This however does not make the Chambers stronger but far weaker as they become like inbred animals.

I have know of students with good 2.1 LLB degrees a good LLM from red bricks with loads of legal and non legal work experience and mooting experience with Very compliant BVC marks lose out to 2.1 in History from Oxford.

I have seen it, I have been part of the fight to give students with real potential a chance. My advice is if you want to be a Barrister play the game go to Oxford or Cambridge and waste 3 years of your life studying anything, do a BVC anywhere it does not matter. Then apply to chambers you will get pupillage.

Do not expect the Bar Standards to help you, do not expect the Inns or Chambers to look at you favourably if you do not have an Oxbridge degree.

Posted: 12 May 2010 11:19 AM

How do you think it should be resolved Judge?

I think the limited number of places based on an exam is the best option - that way it is based more on individual merits. Although… passing an exam does not mean you will be a good barrister.

Posted: 12 May 2010 01:38 PM

Pupillagehunter - There are a number of things that could resolve the problem.

1) Chambers have to drop their stupid idea that there are only 2 universities.

2) Interviews should be offered to all students via a mix of interviews at Inns and Chambers. Chambers cannot do it all.

3) The Inns HAVE to become involved not only in interviews but in education and training. This years BVC fees were around 15K and in many instances if students got 7K worth of education I am surprised.The BVC is a cash cow and standards have dropped.

4) The Inns should run a 1 year apprenticeship sending pupils to courts up and down the land to get into a real court system. scrap the BVC “schools” get hands on experience before foisting pupils on Chambers. I have had students tell me they have learned more in 1 month sitting in a court as a marshal than a year doing the BVC.

5) The entrance to law schools and Barristers training should be restricted via an entrance exam NOT taken at University but at an Inns.. Unfair, not equal opportunity- Yes get used to it Life is not fair. Every dog and his uncle wants to be a barrister there are no enough places in the UK.

6) Internships should be arranged by Inns all over the world not just the UK.

7)Dedicated students need the interviews. This is easy to see from CV’s.

8) Barristers should have an opportunity to see all students who should have at least an LLB or GDL and LLM. Degrees in knitting from Oxford do not count. This is a serious career for serious law students.

9) Students should realize that they may not be cut out for one of the top sets in London and that there is life outside the top 5 chambers. Get someone to publish the top 100 list. No I do not care that some chambers will not like appearing down the rankings.

10) Students should work with the Inns who should stop the idea that they are so superior, get down of the pedestal and help student members, set up ways to get all students in front of Benches or QC’s for a chat about law. Joining an Inns should be more than pay a fee and you are in. ONLY students with LLB should be allowed in but will need an LLM to apply to become a Barrister…

11) STOP making excuses about how difficult it is to change and find a new way.

Is this unrealistic? Maybe not but someone has to start somewhere and it needs to blow through Chambers and the Barristering world before we lose good people to other professions.

Posted: 12 May 2010 04:07 PM

Judge, just some thoughts in response. Bear in mind that I am approaching this from a point of view of the Criminal Bar, I am aware that different standards are held for the varying practice areas. (I’m also aware my terminology is out of date - BPTC and Pupillage Portal etc, but it’s all longer than the old stuff so I’ll use them as they were when I did them!)

1) Chambers have to drop their stupid idea that there are only 2 universities.

This will come with time, it is natural in such a relatively small profession to stick with what you know and Oxbridge turns out good graduates. As the growing numbers of tenants without Cantab or Oxon on their business cards get onto Pupillage committees we will see some change. However, have you considered the possibility that maybe that Oxbridge grad is just a bit better than the competition? The whole point of those two institutions is that they recognise and develop the best talent surely?

2) Interviews should be offered to all students via a mix of interviews at Inns and Chambers. Chambers cannot do it all.

I disagree entirely given that it is your colleagues in Chambers who have to work with you day to day, not the staff or volunteers at the Inn.

3) The Inns HAVE to become involved not only in interviews but in education and training. This years BVC fees were around 15K and in many instances if students got 7K worth of education I am surprised.The BVC is a cash cow and standards have dropped.

Quite possibly so, and you’re right the Inns should stand up for the quality of service of their newest members. However, the Bar’s governing and regulatory bodies surely bear more responsibility here. In addition, the quality, or lack thereof, of teaching on the BVC will not be what stops one getting pupillage.

4) The Inns should run a 1 year apprenticeship sending pupils to courts up and down the land to get into a real court system. scrap the BVC schools get hands on experience before foisting pupils on Chambers. I have had students tell me they have learned more in 1 month sitting in a court as a marshal than a year doing the BVC.

This is a point which I think should be taken up by the individual pupillage-seeker. I started going to courts to observe at the age of 16, I knew I wanted to be a criminal barrister, I put in the effort. There are compulsory court visits as part of the BVC - I do agree though that the BVC should focus less on flashy High Court process and give a grounding in Mags’ Court work. However, again this is practice specific, if you’re in Tax chambers you might not see much of a courtroom…

5) The entrance to law schools and Barristers training should be restricted via an entrance exam NOT taken at University but at an Inns.. Unfair, not equal opportunity- Yes get used to it Life is not fair. Every dog and his uncle wants to be a barrister there are no enough places in the UK.

This would most likely prejudice the entry system to those who could afford external cramming tutors etc. Also, Oxbridge would undoubtedly come out on top - it seems to be at odds with your point 3 since fewer people at Bar School (whoever runs it) would mean an increased cost per student in order to maintain good teaching quality, the Govt. is broke so the legal training establishments need to be self-sufficient which means making a profit out of your education. Also, this would restrict the overseas BVC candidates who pour much needed cash into the system.

6) Internships should be arranged by Inns all over the world not just the UK.

Not quite sure what you mean by internships - but there is likely to be a difficulty here with matters of jurisdiction and protectionism, nobody would want to see the opportunities in Country A being taken by a bunch of students coming over from Countries B & C. Although I may have misunderstood your point, in which case, please put me right!

7)Dedicated students need the interviews. This is easy to see from CVs

This is already the single biggest factor in most pupillage applications, if you can get over your dedication then you might deserve an interview. Remember, you not only have to excel yourself, but beat everyone else who applied to that set. The whole point here is that it is not easy to see from a badly written CV - your Inn will help you, Lincoln’s runs a Pupillage Foundation Scheme which really helped.

8) Barristers should have an opportunity to see all students who should have at least an LLB or GDL and LLM. Degrees in knitting from Oxford do not count. This is a serious career for serious law students.

This sounds so much like sour grapes that I’m almost tempted not to address it, but that would be childish, so here goes.
I don’t like “non-lawyers” converting in a year and sneaking in to steal our pupillages with their jazzy double firsts in ancient runes from Cambridge either. However, if you’re bright enough to get a double first in a subject and change your mind it shows a breadth of understanding and a flexibility of learning which is attractive to Chambers. Sorry, but forcing people to do law degrees will just push the competition to UCAS as much as OLPAS.

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LLB (Hons)(Exon)
Yes I have pupillage, no I didn’t go to Oxbridge.

Posted: 12 May 2010 04:20 PM

Continued…

9) Students should realize that they may not be cut out for one of the top sets in London and that there is life outside the top 5 chambers. Get someone to publish the top 100 list. No I do not care that some chambers will not like appearing down the rankings.

Publishing a top 100 Chambers would be a nice idea, but I’d like to know who would be able to do it impartially, also the risk I foresee here is that those in the upper levels of ability would pitch themselves deliberately a bit lower down the rankings to try and ensure a pupillage. I think that applicants should do their research better - after all, Chambers don’t owe you a pupillage!

10) Students should work with the Inns who should stop the idea that they are so superior, get down of the pedestal and help student members, set up ways to get all students in front of Benches or QCs for a chat about law. Joining an Inns should be more than pay a fee and you are in. ONLY students with LLB should be allowed in but will need an LLM to apply to become a Barrister..

I fear this is wrong-headed for a number of reasons, chiefly:
a) Making an LLM a requirement will drastically skew the Bar to the old fashioned club for rich kids which more or less everyone agrees is a bad idea. It will also have the effect of devaluing an LLM as every university will be making them available and easy to get the business from budding barristers.
b) You join an Inn to be a barrister, they offer an unique opportunity, if you go to Inn dinners and events you will be able to chat about law to as many barristers, QCs, Judges and ex Judges as you can manage. The Inn does not owe you a career, and you have to remember that just pressing the flesh and schmoozing with an old Bencher won’t (and shouldn’t) guarantee you a pupillage. Contacts you make can help though in terms of CV reading, proofing an OLPAS form or even interview practice, just ask, the worst they can say is no!

11) STOP making excuses about how difficult it is to change and find a new way.

I don’t think people make excuses about how difficult it is to change, I think that the majority of people aren’t making excuses at all. It is important to remember how staid the Bar is as a profession and that it has been under immense pressure to radically reform itself recently. This reform will be difficult and it will take time, in the meanwhile the failures of the system should not be blamed for each individual disappointment. After all, the real reason that it is so hard to get pupillage is because there isn’t enough work to sustain 3,000 new barristers a year!

Is this unrealistic? Maybe not but someone has to start somewhere and it needs to blow through Chambers and the Barristering world before we lose good people to other professions.

The Bar loses good people to other professions or other areas of the legal world every week - for varying reasons. I do not think this is a bad thing, the training the BVC gives may not be perfect but it is a very good grounding for all sorts of other careers. While the Bar remains a respected profession with core values of integrity, honour and hard-work, those who trained to practice within it will still be well received by other legal professionals and the worlds of business, politics, commerce and elsewhere. This is too great a heritage to risk being lost in a drive to revolutionise its recruitment strategy.

Sorry for the lengthy reply, but I felt it was important to put forward my views as someone who had to fight a bit to get a pupillage, and I fully realise my journey up the ladder has only just begun. Second sixes are not guaranteed any more, let alone tenancies.

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LLB (Hons)(Exon)
Yes I have pupillage, no I didn’t go to Oxbridge.

Posted: 13 May 2010 06:26 AM

bluebottle - spoken like a true Goon (complement) however also spoken like someone not wanting to ruffle feathers. I concede that there is a difference when speaking of the Criminal Bar. 

However,

1) I have been hearing for 20 years that things will change in time. That is just a delaying tactic that 1st years use when they are stumped.

2) I think when you get to know the Inns better you will discover there is a great deal of pride in the work they do.

3) Sure Bar Standard should be into the schools like a dose of salts but have you seen it? Maybe in time.

4) Pupils doing an apprentice themselves is unlikely and is not and could not be structured.

5) Oxbridge does not come out on top in assessed mini-pupillage nor on written work. When we stopped allowing assesses to know what University the pupil was from it changed the assessment away from Oxbridge and my point!

6) OK

7) I know Lincolns Inn very well after 28 years!

8) To answer the burning question you have. LLB (Oxon) BCL (Oxon) MBA (Harvard) I eat no sour grapes!

9)?

10) Thank you for putting me straight. I should remember that no one owes me a living -LOL- presumption and arrogance is the signs we all look for at the Bar in our opponents because it lights our way to victory.

11) There should not be 3000 barristers a year - that is what I have been saying! however the ones there are should be given interviews. Yes I went to Oxford, yes I am practicing and yes I have first hand knowledge of what we speak!

Posted: 13 May 2010 10:43 AM

Shortly I will be graduating from a law school that is not a part of the Russell Group and it is amazing the number of students that are planning to do the BVC. Personally I believe the issue of spots versus intake is not limited to the BVC and it seems the issue also lies with the LPC in wake of the recent recession. For me I have not decided to do the LPC this year due to the benefit of doing the LPC in a weak economy does not justify the cost. Arriving at the decision not to do it was a tough one, I did get some pressure to do it, but the more I discussed the option the more evident it became because I did not have a training contract I had about 33% chance of getting one by the time I graduate. When balancing the cost against the chance of getting a training contract by the time I completed the LPC I did not feel the risk could be justified.

At least from my perspective I believe the solution lies in one of two areas. One solution I believe is merging the LPC and BVC into one unified program. This would mean doing away with the distinction of being a solicitor or barrister. In addition it could mean adopting a similar model to the United States. An alternative solution I feel would be if developing the BVC and LPC programs. Under this type of scenario it might mean it might mean that if a student under went the BVC or LPC and was not able to get a placement then their training would allow them to have more responsibility than someone with an LLB. It could mean their training could allow them to undertake a role as a legal executive without further supervision. Also it could mean that they could work for legal aid, work for agencies providing legal support to the disadvantage, or providing reduced cost legal advice to simple legal problems. At least from my perspective the issue seems to be a cost / benefit issues, whereby the cost of the program cannot be justified by the benefit that it brings.

Posted: 13 May 2010 05:12 PM

bpberry - I have looked into the blurring of the lines between Barristers and Solicitors and I have become more convinced that they should be kept very separate. You certainly sound as if you think thing over clearly but do not forgo your LPC because you think there is little prospects of a job. What sort of law do you want to practice and where?

Posted: 14 May 2010 12:22 AM

Let me try to clarify, I have forgone my LPC this year due to the fact I some of the training contracts that I applied for where withdrawn due to economic reasons and some of the firms that I was interested in applying for a training contract were not offering them for 2010 / 2011. This meant for me I would have to fund it myself and when you compare the cost of doing the LPC versus a master degree the LPC is approximately twice the cost. Furthermore the research that I did into the benefits of doing the LPC, the chances of getting a training contract while doing my LPC, and the benefits of doing a LPC if did not have a training contract by the time I completed my LPC led me to the conclusion that the risk of doing an LPC outweighed any benefit. My research included speaking with providers who offered the LPC along with speaking to people in the legal profession. From the conversations that I had I was told I had about a 33% chance that I would have a training contract by the time I completed my LPC and that most likely if I did not have one by the time I would complete my LPC then if I persevered I would have one within two years. In addition I was told that from an employment perspective, which includes both pay and job responsibility, that if I did not receive a training contract a LPC would not increase my employment opportunities when comparing it to a graduate with a qualifying law degree, LLB(Hons). Given the current economic situation along with the LPC cost and employment opportunities with a LPC I do not feel I can justify the expense of the LPC program this year. Had the cost of the LPC been inline with the cost of doing a master degree I would most likely done the LPC. Finally, if you were to ask me what is the main reason for not doing the LPC this year? The answer I would give is the cost of having to fund it myself and I cannot justify the cost.

In answer to your other question what area of law would I be interested in practicing if I had done the LPC, the three areas that are of most interest to me medical negligence in particular psychologist malpractice, employment, and immigration.

Posted: 14 May 2010 12:39 AM

The one thing that I feel that the system of both BVC and LPC is becoming a system that excludes those that can least afford it. If you look at the United States for example, legal education is much more expensive. However, the schools that offer legal education provide financial assistance to the student through grants, tuition discounts, loans, scholarships, and other incentives to attend. Either in this country, the choice is getting a training contract or having to fund the course, yourself, which exceeds the total tuition, cost of your LLB.

Also in the United States, students who want to study law must first take the LSAT along with having the qualifying grade point average for entrance. Each school determines the LSAT score and grades needed. Now I am not advocating the use of the LSAT but I do feel more needs to be done with the system so that it more equitable. If employing an entrance test is needed to balance out the system so that those entering have a realistic chance at continuing on to be qualified then that is something I support. Along with reforming entrance requirements, I believe much more needs to be done to make attending the LPC or BVC affordable. This could be done through more competition to bring down the price, inclusion of assistanceships (research or teaching undergraduate LLB students), and other financial incentives to help students bear the cost of funding. Until more is done to make the cost of attending a LPC or BVC affordable I will not accept that the system attracts the best minds instead the system attracts those who are the most able to afford it thereby barring those with the ability.

   
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